QUESTION: Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
**Ms. Fleming's example:
Why does Louise Erdrich use point of view shifts in “The Shawl”?
Because it de-centers the reader.
Why does she want to de-center the reader?
Because then we feel fragmented or confused.
Why does she want us to feel fragmented or confused?
Because fragmentation is a theme of the story.
Why is fragmentation a theme of the story?
Because the family in the story and the Anishnaabeg community are fragmented.
Why do we need to feel this fragmentation?
Because community and family are universal human truths or related to the human condition. Because she wants to have us feel the importance of stories in keeping a family and community healthy and connected.
Thesis: Louis Erdrich uses point of view shifts in “The Shawl” to de-center the reader, so that the reader feels the fragmentation of the narrator and of his community. As the red shawl slowly becomes more and more tattered, so does our certainty about what’s happening to the characters. By the end of the story, we, as much as the narrator and his father, yearn for a new story, one that feels good, makes sense, and restores our faith in the goodness of these people. The shifts in point of view allow us a visceral experience in addition to our intellectual experience of the story, thus increasing our empathy.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulator is more pathetic, because they can't use honest means to get what they want.
Why is it pathetic if they can't use honesty?
If they can't use honesty to get what they want, it proves that they have a morally weak character. They depend on the deceit of others instead of positive qualities such as their own hard work and determination.
Why is it important to have a strong moral character?
A strong moral character means that you can make wise choices and that you are generally living for the benefit of yourself and others around you.
Why should you care about others around you?
You should care about others around you because you are a part of society, what you do doesn't just impact yourself but impacts your classmates, colleagues, and the other people that you encounter every day. Having compassion for each other is one of the things that makes us human.
Why does having compassion make us human?
Having compassion makes us human because it shows that we do not just care about ourselves, but we care about the suffering of others. If we did not have compassion, we would just be cold, empty animals, competing for survival in the world. Compassion creates love for the common good of mankind. We are one of the only species that nurtures our young and spends their whole life with someone.
Why should we not only care about survival?
Because in order to live a fulfilled life, we can not only focus on survival, but rather how we can live our lives to the best of our ability.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulated person is the more pathetic person because they are controlled and lied to without even knowing most of the time.
Why is it pathetic to be controlled and lied to without knowing it?
Even though it is not your fault, if you are being manipulated without knowing it, you are behaving controllable and gullible, which is pathetic.
Why is behaving controllable and gullible pathetic?
Being controllable and gullible is a bad reputation to have so everyone should always act sharp and strong. Not being pathetic means you do not let people think they control you or do anything to you that you do not want them to do.
Why should you not let people control you do anything to you that you do want them to do?
Everyone should stand on their own two feet and be strong enough to say no. If you do not have this skill your life will eventually not even be your life anymore.
Why is it important to know how to say no?
Being able to say no allows you respect yourself and know what you truly want and need, not what other people want for you.
Why is it good to respect yourself?
If you don't respect yourself, than other people won't respect you either. If you do respect yourself, other will people will respect you.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulated person is the more pathetic person because they are controlled and lied to without even knowing most of the time.
Why is it pathetic to be controlled and lied to without knowing it?
Even though it is not your fault, if you are being manipulated without knowing it, you are behaving controllable and gullible, which is pathetic.
Why is behaving controllable and gullible pathetic?
Being controllable and gullible is a bad reputation to have so everyone should always act sharp and strong. Not being pathetic means you do not let people think they control you or do anything to you that you do not want them to do.
Why should you not let people control you do anything to you that you do want them to do?
Everyone should stand on their own two feet and be strong enough to say no. If you do not have this skill your life will eventually not even be your life anymore.
Why is it important to know how to say no?
Being able to say no allows you respect yourself and know what you truly want and need, not what other people want for you.
Why is it good to respect yourself?
If you don't respect yourself, than other people won't respect you either. If you do respect yourself, other will people will respect you.
The manipulated is the more pathetic person.
ReplyDeleteWhy is the manipulated more pathetic?
If they can't see they are being manipulated it's their fault.
Why is it their fault?
If they let someone get close enough to them (relationship wise) and then let them manipulate them it's pathetic.
Why are they pathetic?
Because they lack the skills to realize they are letting someone manipulate them and that makes them weak.
Why does weak=pathetic?
Because if you let someone manipulate you that's pathetic because you should see what they are doing.
Why would you let someone close to you manipulate you?
You don't. Don't let anyone close to you manipulate you because if someone close to you does that it means they don't care about you. People who actually care about you won't manipulate you. You don't want those people around and have to watch out for them.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulator is the more pathetic person because deceiving shows weak character.
Why do manipulators show weak character by deceiving?
Decieving shows weak character because it involved tricking people?
Why does deceiving involve tricking people?
Becuase deceiving is getting a person to do something through sly means?
Why does deceiving involve getting a person to do something through sly means?
Deceiving involved sly means because you are trying to influence them to do something they would normally do in order for your own benefit?
Why do manipulators influence people for their own benefit?
Manipulators could have many reasons for influencing people, but at the problems root is the need to be immoral?
Why do manipulators need to be immoral?
Manipulators have issues getting what they want from being moral, so they use immoral methods like deceiving to get their way. This makes them more pathetic because they are trying to get people to do something they might not normally do, which says much more on the patheticness of manipulator and shows very little pathetiness on a person just becuase they are being manipulated.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulator is more pathetic because they arent able to get what they want, they have to trick other people in order to get what they want.
Why is it pathetic that they have to trick people to get what they want?
Someone who cant get something without having to trick people shows they are not trustworthy which is bad.
Why is it bad that someone isnt trustworthy?
If someone is untrustworthy then people dont want to be friends with them.
Why wont people want to be friends with someone whose untrustworthy?
Because it is important to have good friends and good friends arent untrustworthy.
Why is it important to be have good friends?
Because good friends are always able to help you and are always there for you.
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ReplyDeleteWho is more pathetic, the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulated
Why is the manipulator not?
Because being able to get what you want doesn't make you pathetic, it makes you resourceful.
Why is the manipulated?
Because they can be controlled by different people and can't tell when people are lying to them.
Why can they be controlled by other people?
Because they're own values are not developed enough to know what's right or wrong and they are too immature to realize when they are being used.
Why are they being used?
Because manipulators are smarter than them to where they can make them think things that maybe isn't right or is against what they should think. Manipulators can scope out who is morally unstable/ more or less pathetic/ not smart and use them easily.
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ReplyDeleteWho is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulated is more pathetic because without knowing it, they are letting someone else control them and that shows they are weak.
Why does that show that they are weak?
Because it means that they don't have a strong enough personality to form their own opinions and make decisions.
Why don't they have a strong enough personality?
Because maybe they haven't matured enough yet, they are just naturally an introverted person, or they have a personality flaw that the manipulator is playing on.
Why is the manipulator preying on their flaw?
Because they want to get them to do something and the flaw is the easiest way to get someone to do something.
Why is a personality flaw easy to prey on?
Because a person's flaw makes them fragile.
Why does it make them fragile?
Because its the one thing makes them not able to control how they feel and what they do.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulated is the more pathetic.
Why is the manipulated more pathetic?
Because if someone as pathetic as the manipulator has gotten in your head, then you are more pathetic than the manipulator.
Why is it pathetic to be manipulated?
Because it shows your true character and that you don't have the ability to think rationally.
Why is the manipulator not as pathetic?
Because the manipulator is just playing off of someone's flaws to get what they want, which is not as pathetic. It is not as pathetic because the manipulated was insecure enough to allow the manipulator to tool them around.
Why is it important to know how to get what you want?
Because someday you are going to want something very badly, and it is important to be able to figure out what you need to do to get it. For example, if you want a job and you pick up on an insecurity of the person who is giving the job, then you can play off that insecurity to your advantage, and help you get the job.
Why is manipulation part of life?
Because it is human nature to try and do what ever you can to better yourself. So, you have to be able to think rationally and recognize when someone is trying to manipulate you or when you might need to manipulate someone else.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulated is the more pathetic person because they are the ones being controlled and weakened.
Why is the manipulated person being controlled and weakened?
The manipulated person doesn’t have control over their own actions because that is in the hands of the manipulator.
Why don’t they have enough control?
The manipulated don’t have control because they don’t realize they are being manipulated.
Why don’t they realize they are being manipulated?
They are too pathetic and immature to realize they are being used.
Why are they pathetic?
They are immature and allow the manipulator to make them think certain ways or form certain opinions.
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ReplyDeleteWho is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe more pathetic person is the manipulated.
Why is the manipulated person more pathetic?
Because they can’t see that they are being manipulated.
Why can’t they see that they are being manipulated?
Because either their emotions are getting in the way, or they’re not smart enough to realize it.
Why do their emotions get in the way?
Because something has happened to affect their emotions, and is distracting them so they can’t differentiate truth from lies.
Why is it important to be able to differentiate truth from lies?
So that you don’t lose something/ someone, or get into trouble.
Why would being manipulate lead to you losing something/ someone/ getting into trouble?
Because manipulations are done by people when they want something, and when they gain that something, you usually lose it.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulator is the more pathetic person between the manipulator or the manipulated.
Why is the manipulator the more pathetic person?
He cannot get what he wants on his own and has to use other people to get what he desires.
Why do they have to use other people to get what they want?
Because they cannot get what they want on their own without using someone else.
Why can't they get what they want without using people?
They are weak people and cannot do things for themselves.
Why are they weak people?
They have used other people their entire lives and can't do things on their own, be it using people for answers on tests or just to even have a friend.
Why have they been using people their entire lives?
They were raised that way and their parents taught them that you can use people to your advantage.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulator is the more pathetic person.
Why is the manipulator the more pathetic person?
They make the conscious choice to ruin somebody's situation , reputation, or even life.
Why do they make the conscious choice to ruin somebody's situation, reputation, or even life?
They either want to or have something to gain by bringing them down.
Why do they either want to or have something to gain by bringing them down?
They are immoral and try to further themselves in any way possible.
Why are they immoral and trying to further themselves in any way possible?
They are pathetic people who have no sympathy and enjoy seeing others suffer for their advantage.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulated is more pathetic.
Why is the manipulated more pathetic if they're being tricked?
We get the notion that since they are being tricked, they are somehow weaker than the manipulator. They manipulated should realize what is happening to them, if they don't they are more pathetic.
Why are some people weaker than others?
It could just be differences in personalities. Some people are naturally stronger than others.
Is there some tragic flaw that weaker people have?
Not really, but often the manipulated person is insecure, much like Othello.
Why are insecure people easier to manipulate?
Insecure people already have doubts about themselves, or situations in their lives. By people preying on these doubts, they can be manipulated.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulator is the more pathetic person.
Why is the manipulator more pathetic?
The manipulator is more pathetic because they are using someone to get something that they want and don't have the courage to ask that person for it.
Why are the manipulated less pathetic?
The manipulated are less pathetic because they are the ones being taken advantage of and might not know any better, they are the victims.
Why does manipulation come across as a bad thing?
Because you are going behind someone's back and tricking them into doing something for your benefit and not theirs.
Why do manipulated people feel bad once they are manipulated?
Manipulated people feel bad once they are manipulated because they think that there is something they could have done to prevent this manipulation and don't want it to happen again.
Why don't manipulated people want to be manipulated again?
Because nobody wants to be taken advantage of twice because it is embarrassing and it shows that you are persuaded easily.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulator is more pathetic because they have the need to manipulate someone for their own satisfaction or gain. It's pathetic that they cannot get what they want on their own, so they have to cheat for it.
Why do they have to cheat?
They are so attached to getting something that they are willing to compromise their morals to get it.
Why do they get that attached?
They can't be happy unless one certain thing happens, even though this one thing involves hurting and manipulating people.
Why can't they be happy unless that one thing happens?
They get it in their head that their purpose is to make this thing happen and they convince themselves that they cannot possibly be happy without it.
Why do they convince themselves of this?
They convince themselves of this because then they feel they have a better motivation to get to their goal, however this also makes them ruthless and helps them feel justified in their manipulation.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulator is the more pathetic person because they want to feel powerful by taking advantage of people who can't protect themselves.
Why does the person want to feel powerful?
The person wants power because they're afraid of what would happen if they became weak, helpless, and vulnerable.
Why are they afraid of being helpless, weak, vulnerable?
Because we all have had some point in our lives where we're felt that way, and it doesn't feel good.
Why does being weak not feel good?
Because we're taught that we're supposed to be tough and admitting to weakness can sometimes feel like a form of failure and it can hurt. We do what we can to avoid getting hurt.
Why are we taught that we're supposed to be tough?
Sometimes being tough doesn't mean ignoring the truth or trying to fight pain. I think that being tough means seeing a situation we don't like and eventually coming to terms that it's out of our hands. To some extent, I think of being tough as surrendering to something greater than you and just accepting what you can. Therefore, I think we're taught to be tough because we need to learn how to have faith in hard times.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulated is the more pathetic person.
Why is the manipulated more pathetic?
Because they're blind to the fact that they're being used, which is why they allow the manipulator to manipulate them.
Why can't the manipulated see that they're being manipulated?
Because the manipulator is skilled enough to work the situation to their advantage without the manipulated knowing.
Why is the manipulator so skilled?
Because if they were unskilled, the manipulation would fail because it would be executed ineffectively and therefore the manipulator would not really be manipulating anything or anyone.
Why would unskilled manipulation fail?
Unskilled manipulation would either be transparent, so the manipulated would see right through it and not succumb to it, or it would simply not get anything done (as is the definition of "executed ineffectively").
Why would the manipulated see through unskilled manipulation?
The manipulation would be so heavy-handed and obvious that the manipulated would immediately know something was wrong, that the manipulator wasn't really to be trusted, and that they were being used.
Who is the more pathetic person: the manipulator or the manipulated?
ReplyDeleteThe manipulated is the more pathetic.
Why is the manipulated more pathetic?
He/She is not paying enough attention to the character/attitude of the manipulator, or has no clue of the significance of their actions.
Why is the manipulated not paying enough attention to the manipulator?
Because they don't fully realize that they will end up on the bottom at the end of the "story"
Why don't they realize they will end up on the bottom?
They either trust the manipulator, or are desperate for help.
Why do they trust the manipulator?
They trust the manipulator because they are gullible or a really need help.
Why do they really need help?
THey need help because they have found themselves in a position that they don't understand.
It definitely depends on the situation. If the manipulator is in dire need, then they are the more pathetic, but if the manipulated is naive and unknowing, then they are.
ReplyDeleteWhy would the manipulator not be considered pathetic for taking advantage of a naive person?
Because you don't feel pity for them.
Why don't you feel pity for someone who doesn't know better than to do that?
Because they do know better, they are just choosing to ignore what the right thing is to do.
Why do they ignore the right thing to do?
They ignore what they know is right because they think it may not be what gains them the most or hurts someone the most.
Why do they want to do what is in their best interest?
They are being selfish and inconsiderate. If they are trying to manipulate somebody, they are ignorant of the needs and feelings of other people.
Why do they have to be selfish to be manipulative? Couldn't they help somebody to make them gain trust, thus manipulating them and not hurting them?
They could, but usually the manipulator is going to break that trust in the end anyways.
It depends on whether the manipulator is able to manipulate the other person because he is smarter, or the manipulated person is just being nice.
ReplyDeleteWhy would it be dependable?
That's because it would be more pathetic for the manipulated person, if he is not noticing an obvious trick. Or it would be less pathetic for the manipulator to manipulate in a clever fashion. If the person being manipulated is just trying to be nice, that means the manipulator is not exactly manipulating, but the other person giving in.
Why so?
Being clever is a good and respectable thing although how you might be using cleverness may be different.
Why is being clever respectable?
It is respectable because a person that can outwit a person can be smart and potent.
Why is being able to outwit someone respectable?
Being able to out smart someone and show potency gives a sense of awe. It is like respecting the power of things and to not mess with it.
Why do you not want to mess with something with power?
Something with power can hurt you, and by respecting it you will not get in the line of fire.
The manipulator is more pathetic
ReplyDeleteQ: Why is the manipulator more pathetic?
A: Because he/she manipulates/uses someone for their own gain
Q: Why would they manipulate someone for their own gain?
A: Because manipulating someone is an easy way for them to get something without going through the drama/taking it head on
Q: Why is manipulation easier than taking it head on?
A: Because in manipulation, you get the manipulated person to do what you want instead of having to do it yourself
Q: Why would the manipulated person do what you want instead of doing it yourself?
A: Because they think they can trust you
Q: Why does a manipulated person trust you?
A: Because you do something that seems to be in their favor, but actually causes worse issues for them. They don't know they're being tricked.
The manipulator in my opinion is more pathetic.
ReplyDeleteBecause they are manipulating someone for there own selfish reasons.
Because they want the money or the glory.
Because they are trying to get paid.
Because money makes the world go round.
Without money it makes it hard to do simple things.