Please click on the link below and watch a short video of thinker, James Hillman, talking about war. Then respond in a comment to this question: Based on your reading of TTTC so far, what do you think the relationship is between beauty and war? Why?
Beauty and War
I think the relationship between beauty and war is complicated. They say that there is beauty in war. It reminds me of in The Things They Carried when Curt Lemon died. Tim O'Brien described the sight as Lemon stepping into the sun and how the sun seemed to gather around him and pick him up. He took a scene in which we could be given gory details, but instead of saying it like that, he chose to use something like sunlight. I imagine being in war you try desperately to look for beauty, especially in a place that is so ugly. Any small thing that is not gory may seem beautiful to the soldiers. Also, you can think something is beautiful if you're scared of it. Like Mr. Hallman said you are fascinated by sublime terror. I feel like anything that is considered sublime, not matter what it is, has a beauty to it.
ReplyDeleteThis question is difficult to answer because beauty and war are two vast, and seemingly different, abstract concepts. Based off of what I've read in The Things They Carried their is diffintely a relationship between beauty and war. I feel that James Hillman is right when he says that war attracts us. Due to the sublime nature of war, we are awed by its majesty and beauty. Thus, by extention, war itself is perceived to be beautiful. In The Things They Carried, when Mary Anne becomes part of the Green Berets, I think she becomes one of them because she is so awed by war that she sees it as beautiful and becomes almost addicted to it. Few people escape the beauty of war as it is almost part of human nature to be so attracted to it. I think this because so many people wouldn't watch great war movies like Saving Private Ryan if war wasn't percieved to be beautiful because many of the scenes in war movies like this are bloody and hard to watch. We keep watching these movies because we think of war as beautiful.
ReplyDeleteWhen I first watched the video I was a bit confused. How could anyone think that war was beautiful? However, I think that people are not necessarily attracted to the beauty of war in the same way we would call a person or thing beautiful. Rather, the "beauty" of war represents fact that war is relatively unknown to most of us. When showed images of war we are awed, but we do not necessarily think it is beautiful in the typical way. I think the air of mystery surrounding war is what really attracts us to it. Other than those who have fought in a war, no one really knows what war is like. The only knowledge many of us have of war are the pictures and videos we see on the news. We see big events happening, but we don't really know what goes on in everyday life during war. Thus, I really think that the air of mystery is the actual "beauty" that attracts us to war.
ReplyDeleteWhile the essence of beauty and war may be two completely separate things, certain parts of war can be beautiful. Without knowing that bombs are harmful to people, and without thinking of the consequences of the bombs, if we stop to just watch the explosion, it is rather cool and even pretty. On the Fourth of July, millions of people in United states spend the night enthralled by the vision of sparkling explosions in the sky. This is the very literal aspect of war being beautiful as James Hillman discussed. Also, the heroic acts that take place during a war could be described as being beautiful examples of how humans should act. During the interview I, like Annie, immediately thought about the the scene where Curt Lemon died and O'Brien talked about how it was almost beautiful the way he died with the sunlight engulfing him. I think there's a connection between beauty and death. I think that the same sublimeness that makes us in awe of explosions also makes us feel small and humbled towards death. Both are instances when we realize that we are relatively small compared to what else is out there, and we have little control of the things that happen to us. At one point, Tim O'Brien says that you never feel more alive than when you're almost dead. This revelation that at any moment you could be dead, yet you're living creates a sense of purpose in living.
ReplyDeleteI think Annie and Trevin bring up a good point, but I agree with Rohan. I think that the mystery surrounding war is what attracts us to it. The things that we don’t know much about are the things that sometimes catch our attention the most. It’s in our nature to be curious about things we don’t know, and it’s also our nature to want to learn about them. I don’t think the relation is between “beauty” and war; I feel as if “beauty” is the wrong word. When I see videos or movies, or read books about war, I don’t think I would call war beautiful; I would call it terrifying yet awe-inspiring. I think the real relationship is between war and our reaction to it. Also, in response to the word sublime, (which was used in the video) I am reminded of last year in English class when we were learning about the meaning of the word. We talked about how something sublime was awe-inspiring in a non-dangerous way. I think that the man used the wrong word when describing war because war is more dangerous than it is sublime; there’s a sense of danger which makes you more cautious then awed.
ReplyDeleteWhenever one thinks of just war alone. It has nothing beautiful to offer. We think of it as inhumane and gory with nothing appealing about it. When you throw in the concept of beauty, it changes how you perceive war. Because war is so unfamiliar to most of us who don't experience it firsthand, we find the curiosities the most appealing. I don't necessarily think that when you think of beauty in this sense it mean actual glamour and grace. I think it means appeal, magnificence, and impressiveness. We are drawn to the beyond belief events that go on during a war and the grand gestures that happen. In The Things They Carried, Mary Anne becomes entranced with war. She finds beauty in it and is partially addicted to it. She could have seen it as grotesque and gruesome, but instead she viewed it as majestic and attractive. Even though this is her reaction to war, not everyone felt the same way. Many people lost themselves in it and never were the same.
ReplyDeleteThis is a difficult question to answer because when most people think of war, they think of all of the violence and goriness. It is hard to relate two concepts that are so opposite. However death can be perceived as beautiful, especially to those who have ben around for so long, like the soldiers in Vietnam. So far, the relationship between beauty and war is complicated and is not expressed very often. When James Hillman was talking about beauty and war and how someone would say, "That explosion was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen," well maybe it is only beautiful to a select number of people. For instance, to soldiers it may have been more "beautiful" than to a regular civilian in the United States because they saw explosions and people being killed everyday. A good example in your book is in the chapter, "The Man I Killed" on page 118, when Tim is describing the man that he killed. When he does, amidst all of the horror, he says there is a butterfly on the man's chin. This can symbolize beauty because I can't help wonder why something so pretty and elegant, would be in the middle of something so gruesome like war. To me this is ironic. Also, for a soldier, if they have waited a long time to kill the enemy and they see the explosion happen, they might say, "It was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen," because all of their waiting is finally over. Overall beauty is not really what war is about; but, it most certainly can be expressed in specific ways.
ReplyDeleteBased off of my reading of TTTC so far, I feel like the beauty of war for some is pure experience. For example, for Tim O'Brien, it seems as if he points out all the negative aspects of war, yet it also seems as if he can't get away from the prospect of war. The "beauty" or value of the experience would always be something that attracts O'Brien, not in the conventional way, but in the memories that keeps him attached to war. Also in the video, one guy talked about how the bombs were one of the most beautiful things he's ever seen and not the fact that it was scary, but the fact that it just happened and he couldn't do anything attracted him to war. It's almost as if the soldiers value their experience in war as something unforgettable, a so called "beautiful" experience. The will to be in some part of the war experience just makes the war ever more "beautiful". It's something different that people who have not gone to war have not been able to experience, something exotic.
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ReplyDeleteIn specifics, yes, beauty and war are completely different. However the general concept of war, in my opinion, fighting for your country, is definitely considered beautiful. For example the soldiers who fought in the American Revolution are honored and remembered today. Obviously, during the war, all the deaths and injuries were horrible and devastating, but all they accomplished for the United States is still beautiful. In "The Things They Carried", some scenes can be extremely sad, and it does explain, in a lot of detail, how terrible war is, but in the end you have to remember one thing. The fact that people are somewhat willing to risk their lives and fight for their countries' prosperity and security, should be considered beautiful. A few people in "The Things They Carried" have been killed in the war. These scenes in the book are the depressing scenes, but unlike many people not in war, these people died with a dedicated and honorable purpose. They gave their life for their country, and in my opinion, this concept is beautiful. The video talks about the beauty in war, and how everyone "is fascinated by the blind terror". The quote makes sense, because the people who have never been to war, and then see the explosions on TV from bombs, would be drawn in, because of the sight they had never seen before, but also because of the awe they have of what some people are going through, daily, for their country. To those people, being a soldier is unimaginable, and by them watching all those war scenes, they are almost trying to make it be imaginable. The willingness of soldiers to serve their country is one hundred percent beautiful, and the whole country should support and be grateful for their services every day.
ReplyDeleteBased on my reading so far in TTTC, I would say that Tim O'Brien would not describe the war itself is a beautiful thing. On the other hand, he might think that beautiful things do happen in war. For example, the bonds that are formed among the men in the platoon is a beautiful thing. But, after reading about how scarred O'Brien was by killing other men, you can tell as a reader that O'Brien doesn't find anything beautiful about killing or bombs. Especially when O'Brien tells us about how there is nothing pretty about war, he says that you send decent young men into Nam and they come back talking dirty; that's just how it is. In the end, I think that O'Brien values the friendships made, the stories told, and the fact that he survived; that is the relationship between beauty and war.
ReplyDeleteSo far from what I have read in TTTC, I would think that Tim O'Brien does not think that war is beautiful. But it is my belief, that the connection between beauty and war is if you have actually experienced war. Throughout the book Tim O'Brien does not talk about the beauty of the death of his friends, he talks about how it hurt everyone in the group. He talks about how they barely got by and loved to get any sign of home, like Mary Anne. But when James Hillman says that we all think that the explosions are beautiful in the movies, it is normally non soldiers who are thinking this. I believe that if you have not truly experienced war by fighting in it and seeing the pain, gore, and terror that goes with it, you could see the explosions, bullets, and various other elements of war as enthralling by its mystery of what it would be like to be near them.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, no matter how many times I try, this video will not play on my computer. However, I believe I can understand the beauty in war from my TTTC reading. People are naturally drawn to gore, wether they are aware of it or not. Sure, we close our eyes when a guy gets stabbed in a movie, but when we see a car crash on the side of the road, we can't look away. Explosions and similar destructive effects have a certain grace to them. When a car smashes into a wall in a movie, it is often in slow motion. Watching the pieces of the car fly across the screen is fascinating to us. When Tim O'Brien kills that man, he stares at the body for quite a long time and repeats the gruesome description several times in the text. Sure, this body will never be seen as "beautiful," but death itself has a sense of beauty. When one reaches their final rest, it is peaceful if nothing else. So when we think of war, we shouldn't say that the soldiers won't see anything beautiful, but more that their definition of beauty is changed.
ReplyDeleteAt first glance, it seems that beauty and war are exact opposites, antonyms in every possible way. But a beautiful thing does not necesarily have to be delicate and clean. The dictionary.com definition of beauty says that beauty means "the quality present in a thing or person that gives intense pleasure or deep satisfaction to the mind... arising from sensory manifestations (as shape, color, sound, etc.)." Something that is considered beautiful could also be something that is terrible. For example, in The Things They Carried, in the scene where Tim kills the young man with a grenade, the the wisp of smoke that came out of the grenade could be considered beautiful. The colors of the dead young man's blood and wounds could also be considered beautiful. Fear heightens the senses, making things seem more vivid. War is a sensory experience, and an experience where fear is common. In a way, it makes sense for soldiers who witness things like bombings to consider those events beautiful.
ReplyDeleteThe relationship between beauty and war is about how the person perceives. If an explosion is seen as beautiful it's because the person knows what is happening and can appreciate the power of what's happening. In my reading of "The Things They Carried", Tim O'Brien says that war has an air of grace and beauty. Beauty is shown in the reactions of the soldiers doing what they were trained to do. The way that orders are carried out and larger schemes take shape on a map as positions are secured and men advance. All of these minor actions all working to advance an overarching goal: to win the war. This relationship shows that there is beauty in all things. This beauty may not be what is commonly accepted, but it is beauty nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteFrom what i have read so far in TTTC it is very evident that Tim O'Brien does not think that war is beautiful. However, he is enchanted by it. Although he never comes out and says it, he is mesmerized by war and that is why he continues to think and write about it. Although war being beautiful is very contradictory, the sight and aspects of war hypnotize many people. In TTTC, Tim O'Brien kills a man with a grenade, leading up to the kill he is engulfed by his surroundings and the electricity of what he is about to do. Adrenaline takes over and creates a feeling of fascination and aliveness. The smoke and explosion from a grenade or a gun lighting up with fire could be considered beautiful but is definitely fascinating for all on-lookers. While many people would argue war is ugly and not beautiful at all, it draws us in and mesmerizes us and that is the beauty of it.
ReplyDeleteI think that Tim O'Brien does not think war in general is a beautiful thing. I do believe that he might think that some beautiful things happen during war. I think he might think that all of the friendships made during war are beautiful. On the other hand, he probably thinks that the main purpose of war, killing, is not beautiful. I also think that the way war changes men is not a beautiful thing. It changes men into people they don't want to be. I think many of us are attracted to war because we don't know the true damage it causes men, physically and emotionally. We do not understand the real war. I think that is why we are naturally attracted to war.
ReplyDeleteI think that the beauty of war is in the complexity. I think that people do not see beauty of war in the same way they see the beauty of a flower or of a painting. Majority of the time, those objects are seen as beautiful for their color palette, detail or delicacy. However, when it comes to war, the mystery and complexity of it leaves us in awe. I have often heard people say that humankind is developing our technology faster than we can evolve to use it properly. I think that the beauty of war is one example of this. We have created these bombs and grenades, and though many can understand the mechanics of them, we cannot understand the true essence of them or their true impact in our lives and others. Therefore, we ogle and wonder at the intricacy of war, calling it beauty, but truly, it is just another unknown, mysterious thing in our lives that we have yet to understand.
ReplyDeleteSublime – adj. - of such excellence, grandeur, or beauty as to inspire great admiration or awe; Used to denote the extreme or unparalleled nature of a person’s attitude or behavior.
ReplyDeleteWhen Mr. Hillman said that there is beauty in the sublime terror of war, I felt like I needed to look up the definition of “sublime” so I could get the full connotations of what the word meant. After seeing this definition, it helped me as a sort of jumping point to describe the relationship between beauty and war. In The Things They Carried, Tim O’Brien makes it a point to show the audience a true story of the Vietnam War, including all of its highs and lows. He says that you can’t generalize about war, that just as war can be hell, it can also be mystery and terror and holiness and so on. He says on page 77, that “for all its horror, you can’t help but gape at the awful majesty of combat.” In this way war is sublime in the physical sense; like Mr. Hillman says, it is human nature to be in awe of the power and colors of an explosion. Do we not sing words like “gallantly” and talk about bombs bursting in air in our own national anthem? War could also be sublime in the spiritual sense; the way it brings platoon members together or how it betters a man in the face of death definitely inspires awe. If one considers the second meaning of the word sublime, you can see that the word definitely applies to war; war is unparalleled in its nature to mix the ugliness of death and hatred with the beauty of a man defending his country or helping a comrade.
At first, it seems that "beautiful" would be the last word anyone would use to describe war. In The Things They Carried, Tim O'Brien often mentions how war is unimaginably ugly to anyone who's never experienced it, and those who do are left scarred. However, when it's examined more closely, the beauty in war begins to show itself. One thing that can be considered beautiful about war is the raw emotions and sense of purpose it can stir. The feeling of duty that come with defending one's country is certainly a powerful, alluring emotion. The other emotions that come from war - the sharp terror of being in mortal danger, the strong sense of relief that comes with survival - are also heightened, and these moments of extreme emotion can be seen as mysterious and beautiful. At one point in The Things They Carried, Tim O'Brien mentions how beautiful everything around him is after he narrowly escapes death during combat, and how he notices and appreciates the little details in everything. These strong emotions tied to war may make it an unexpected source of beauty.
ReplyDeleteWar is a tough thing to compare with beauty. There are two sides in the comparison. The beauty captured in a single moment in the battlefield. The emotions, expression, portrayed on the face of each soldier. It truly a site to see. In my opinion it is inarguable that war has an ugly side. Death, gore, injuries, and mental hardship which burden those who participate. So in the end I would say war has beauty, but is truly overwhelmed by the distasteful side of war. I say this because Tim O' Brien has pointed out a few"beautiful" parts throughout the novel. It has made me see some parts in different ways. Yet again it does not out weigh the uglier parts.
ReplyDeleteThe line between war and beauty is in my opinion not there because, even though something is blowing up it can still be beautiful and make an amazing picture which can move some one in many different ways. Relating this to "TTTC" the war described by Tim O'Brien has pointed out only a few "beautiful" things throughout the novel but instead most of the things have been "ugly" not appealing to the senses. I think that he does this on purpose cause in the book he say multiple times that war is not a place to be for so long cause your mind changes and you will never get back to they way things where before war. Making war a "UGLY" place to be
ReplyDeleteI agree with Hillman when he says we are all attracted to war because of how beautiful yet horrible it is. There is so much terror involved because of explosions from bombs or someone getting shot. So why is it that we want to see and know what is going on?
ReplyDeleteIn "TTTC" I feel Tim O'Brian wants us to understand how beautiful Vietnam was at that time, but also the unbearable experiences he went through. People, including myself, admire this "beauty" of war for different reasons. I think people are curious as to what war is really like. l also think that people like to hear war stories and current news about Iraq to sympathize with those that have loved ones overseas.
War is a strange thing to comprehend. There are things of "beauty" and praise but unexpectedly tragedies occur when we least expect them.
When watching this I pictured a Vin diagram of War and beauty. In some places, like shock and awe displays and even the precision of military drills, war has a sort of cold beauty. But on the other hand, war is one of the ugliest things that has ever existed.
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